absoffthewake

I think you should have a Engine Repair Maintenace/Modification Thread, then sub-threads on engine types (not too specific). The SeeDoo Models have shared engine types, and someone with a Challenger Rotax will never see a Sportster Rotax user's troubles even though they have the same engine.

Example:

General Engine Repair/Maintenace/Modification

Sub: Mercruiser V6
Sub: 2-Cycle Rotax
Sub: 4-Tec Rotax
Etc....


Just my 2 cents....

Please help our cause!!

If you do not know this already, all 2 Cycle Rotax engines can take any API TC oil product. However Citgo Sea & Snow offers MUCH better protection, is one of the highest quality oils we can use, and is also one of the cheapest options! (Exceeds API TC, Exceeds ISO EGD, JASO FC certified, May Be Used JASO FD) If you do not know what this means. please read my thread titled “2 CYCLE ROTAX ENGINE OIL OPTIONS- MUST READ!�

At an average of $13.99 / gallon, it is one of the cheapest oils we can buy!

West Marine and Boat US are discontinuing this product because according to the buyer, “it is not moving very well�. I believe it is not moving because Seadoo owners to not realize they have this better option.

Please call West Marine at (831) 728-2700 (they purchase for Boat US now), contact the Purchasing Department, and tell them they are making a huge mistake!! Our community depends on this oil, and it is extremely hard to find anywhere else. Also let them know we are making attempts to Educate the Seadoo community via internet forums, and they will definitely see the results of our efforts.

OUR ONLY OTHER READILY AVAILABLE OPTION IS OEM OIL AT $33 /gallon!!

Thanks for helping,


Abdiel Marin, 1998 Challenger 1800, Twin 110hp Rotax

Oil Products List:

I've compiled a list of 2-Cycle oil products that are currently available and should work with our 2 Cycle Rotax Engines. Please double check with the manufacturer to make sure this information is correct. For your convenience, I've tagged them with Good, Better, Best Protection. Also regarding the standards they meet, I've tagged them with the following to show why there are Good, Better, Best:

Certified = Paid lots of money to become certified
Exceeds = Manufacturer says it was developed to exceed, but never actually certified.
No Mention = Manufacturer says it was developed to meet, but never actually certified.
May be used = Manufacturer did not develop to meet, but thinks it's comparable.
Low Ash = Manufacturer Specifically Stated "Low Ash"

Pennzoil
Good-Pennzoil Outdoor 2-Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines, API TC
Better-Pennzoil Outdoor Premium Outboard & Multipurpose 2 Cycle Oil (Not Marine Premium Plus), Exceeds API TC

Castrol
Better-Castrol Super 2 Stroke, Exceeds API TC, Low Ash
Better-Castrol Super Snow, Exceeds API TC, Low Ash
Better-Castrol SYNTEC Snowmobile Oil, Exceeds API TC, Low Ash

Quaker State
Good-Quaker State Universal 2-Cycle Engine Oil for Air Cooled Engines, JASO FA & FB, and API TC
Service TC
Better-Quaker State 2-Cycle Motorcycle Engine Oil, API TC and JASO FC
Best-Quaker State Premium Green Low Smoke 2-Cycle Engine Oil, ISO GD, JASO FC, and API

Citgo
Good-Citgo Superguard Marine Plus 2-cycle oil, "May be used for API TC"
Best-Citgo Superguard Sea and Snow 2-cycle oil Exceeds API TC, Exceeds ISO EGD, JASO FC certified, May Be Used JASO FD
Best-Citgo Superguard Air Cooled 2-cycle oil Exceeds API TC, Exceeds ISO EGD, JASO FC certified, May Be Used JASO FD


Valvoline
Better-Valvoline Durablend Multipurpose 2-cycle Engine Oil, API TC, JASO FC (Hard to Find, not on Website, DO NOT USE ANY OTHER VALVOLINE PRODUCT, MUST BE DURABLEND)

Amsoil
Good-Amsoil HP Injector Oil, API TC
Better-Amsoil INTERCEPTOR Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil, JASO FC, API TC
Better-Amsoil DOMINATOR 2-Cycle Oil, JASO FC, API TC
Best-Amsoil Saber™ Professional Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil ISO-L-EGD, JASO FC, API TC
Best-Amsoil Saber™ Outboard Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil ISO-L-EGD, JASO FC, API TC

Quicksilver
Good-Quicksilver Premium 2 cycle oil, Can't find Product Data Sheet But Premium container (not Plus) states may be used for API TC
Good-Quicksilver PWC 2 cycle oil, API TC

Texaco Havoline
Good-Havoline Two-Cycle Engine Oil TC-W3, ISO-L-EGB, JASO FB, API TC

Stihl
Best-Stihl Low Smoke Oil, ISOL-EGD, JASO FC certified

Oil Quality Classification System

I have spent way too much time researching this, but hopefully it will shed some light on the whole Oil Debate for 2 cycle Rotax engines. Contrary to what most people may believe, Whether or not the oil is "Low Ash" or "Ashless"� is not very much concern. Although Low Ash oils typically do provide added protection, it does not necessarily mean we should choose our oil based on whether or not it is Ashless or Low Ash. What is more important is the Oil Quality Classification. The oil quality classification is generally used to determine the oil's ability to prevent failure under unusual loads. There are several oil classification standards, but the ones that pertain to us are NMMA, API, ISO, and JASO. I will limit the standards to ones that pertain to us.

Standards you may be familiar with:

API Standards
In 1988 the American Petroleum Institute (API) and the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) defined oil designations for different two-cycle engine oil applications. These included:

API TA - Asian Use, High Ash Oil
API TB - European Use, Medium Ash Oil
API TC - North American Use, Low Ash Air-Cooled Engine Oil
API TD - North American Use, Ash-Free Outboard, Water-Cooled Engine Oil.

After viewing this list, you may find that these classifications are primarily based on the amount of Ash, not a very good way of determining the ability for oil to protect your engine. This method of classification is outdated and seldom used.

As you know, our SeaDoo's call for API TC. Although our 2-cycle Rotax is not an Air-cooled engine, it requires this oil because air-cooled oils typically offer much better protection than water-cooled oils.

NMMA Standards
In 1988 the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA), formerly the BIA, issued TC-WII lubricant requirements. In 1993 TC-W3 came out. As we all know, these standards mean nothing to us Rotax users because they will do not provide enough protection against engine failure in Rotax or Aircooled (Like the ones featured in Ultralites) engines. This standard does not even meet API TC's engine protection, as it was not designed to withstand the typical challenges of an Air-Cooled Engine (or in our case, a high horsepower, high RPM, high temperature Rotax engine).

Newer Standards that make more sense:

ISO "Global" System
ISO is Europe's solution to the American Crap system. They are classified as follows:

Global "EGD" is internationally recognized as the highest quality air-cooled 2-cycle oil available. It is a synthetic or semi-synthetic, extreme temperature/anti-scuff/lubricity, low smoke, low ash oil. Comparable to JASO FD. There is no comparable API product. API is significantly less quality than EGD.

Global "EGC" is equivalent to JASO "FC," Japan's highest quality 2-cycle oil. In Japan these oils may also be referred to as "Genuine" oils. These oils are high lubricity/detergent, low smoke, semi-synthetic, low ash oils.

Global "EGB" Europe's lowest quality 2-cycle oil, is equivalent to JASO "FB." It is generally accepted that North America's API TC rated oils are equivalent to these oils. These oils do not require any synthetic to meet specifications, but do have detergent and/or lubricity additives, and are typically low to medium ash oils.

JASO System
JASO is Japan's solution to the American Crap system. They are classified as follows:

JASO "FA" rated oils are used in Pacific Rim countries and are the lowest rated Japanese 2-cycle oils. They are medium to high ash mineral oils with limited lubricity or detergency. As of December 2004, this classification will not be used.

JASO "FB" is equivalent to Global "GB." It is generally accepted that North America's API TC rated oils are equivalent to these oils. These oils do not require any synthetic to meet specifications, but do have detergent and/or lubricity additives, and are typically low to medium ash oils.

JASO "FC" is equivalent to Global "GC," Europe's medium quality 2-cycle oil. In Japan these oils may also be referred to as "Genuine" oils. These oils are high lubricity/detergent, low smoke, semi-synthetic, low ash oils. Before December 2004, this was JASO's highest quality oil.

JASO "FD" is equivalent to Global "GD," Europe's Highest quality 2-cycle oil. This classification was added December 2004.


So what does this mean to us????

Our Seadoo's require protection that API TC delivers. However better protection is obviously better!

Instead of looking for oil that is API TC "Low Ash"� we should be focusing our attention on oils that provide comparable or better protection. So here is a new criteria for oil.

For the best protection exceeding API TC: Use oil that meets or exceeds ISO EGD, ISO EGC, JASO FC, or JASO FD

For comparable protection to API TC: Use oil that meets or exceeds ISO EGB, JASO FB, or API TC

AVOID: JASO FA, and all TC-W* unless it meets or exceeds a higher standard listed in the product data sheet.