10 replies to this topic

[tda3]

Not sure if you guys have been keeping up with this new engine design from Evinrude called the e-Tec, but I find it a very interesting motor from several perspectives.

First of all, Bombardier owns Evinrude which means that this technology could find it's way to the Sea-Doo line of boats. Which spawns a potentially interesting dilemma. I mean, Sea-Doo has been touting the 4-Tec as the solution for noise & polution over the 2-smoke Rotax engines. Yet the Evinrude e-Tec engine currently beats all the 4-stroke outboards in fuel consumption, weight, noise, and emissions. So why would Bombardier continue to promote it's 4-Tec as the end-all, be-all engine for their sport boats and PWC's?

Those of us that have the Merc M2 jet know how reliable the engine is. We also know that it flat kicks ass with it's serious power-to-weight ratio. So why not give us the Evinrude equivalent to the M2 in the Challenger 180? Can the 4-strokes be made to give the same Hp? Absolutely. But at what complexity? 4-stroke engines need belts and cam shafts and rocker arms and multiple valves, and in some cases even supercharging to compete in the Hp arena. 2-smokes don't have any of this complexity and weigh less. And with this new e-Tec motor, I can't call them 2-smokes any more! Oh - and the e-Tec engines require NO MAINTENANCE for the first 3 years! What's the service interval for a 4-Tec? Hell, the e-Tec's don't even have a break-in period!!

I dunno......seems to me that Bombardier would be better served by flowing down the e-Tec technology, at a minimum, into their sport boats. The folks that spend $25K on a Sea-Doo sport boat versus $25K on a Sunbird or a Sea-Ray or a Bayliner or whatever do so IMHO because they want performance. And there's no 4-stroke out there that can compete with a comperable Hp 2-stroke engine because of one important factor - WEIGHT. If I had the choice between an Evinrude e-Tec jet drive versus a 4-Tec, I'd take the e-Tec. Similarly, I'd buy a Challenger X over the standard Challenger 180 just so I could get the 250Hp M2 and not the 4-Tec.

Tom

[SuperCharged]

totaly agree with you tda3 e-tec is the best technology... if bombardier change his 4-tec for e-tec technology, there will be no more competition. This technology is amazing.. you have all the avantage of the 2 stroke + a best fuel economie, noise level and emissons than 4 stroke --> http://www.brp.com/e.../07.04.2005.htm

check out the comparison : http://www.evinrude....cceleration.htm

The only problem is that technologie is expensive

I hope too see Pwc and sportboats with this technology in 2006



Proud to be quebecer

http://www.brp.com/e.../2005.05.20.htm

[tda3]

"The only problem is that technologie is expensive"

Ahhhhhh......but that's were economies of scale come into play. Make (sell) more units and the costs of production come down and you can amortorize your development costs over a larger number of units.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that e-Tec flows down (across?) the product lines.

Tom

[thumper]

a friend of mine has just replaced a honda 4 o/b with the newest e-tec 250 and he cant say enough good things about it- hes getting 50knots + on a 9m rib - i guess its only a matter of time - although i was under the impression that 2 strokes were basically becoming 'illegal' in a couple of years because of the emmissions????

[SuperCharged]

i guess its only a matter of time - although i was under the impression that 2 strokes were basically becoming 'illegal' in a couple of years because of the emmissions????

no, If they respect the standart of emisson, its ok... and the e-tec produce generally 30-50% less emissions than a 4stroke and 50-100% less emissions at idle....

[thumper]

i see - then maybe soon well see the e-tec in seadoos as tda suggested - although personally i do prefer 4 strokes - im not sure why i guess its because im used to them.

[keviseeb]

I don't mean to be controversial but.......we as a dealer agree with many other sport boat dealers nationwide that Evinrude has a great product BUT the stigma of OMC's ownership and bankruptcy is still attached to both the Evinrude and Johnson lines of outboards. As one of the top 10 sport boat dealers nationwide we will NOT carry any Sea Doo jet boats that are equipped with anything other than a Mercury or Rotax engine. To many that means that the over 18 foot market will be penetrated by other manufaturers, we are looking at those options now. We have been trying to find out what Seadoo's intentions are with respect to repowering the Utopia, Islandia, and Challenger X but have been unsuccessful so far. Since we make our living by buying from manufaturers and then reselling to the public we have to respond to what the public wants, and that precludes an Evinrude powered sport boat. It should go without saying that we resell Seadoo products because we want to and because we believe in the design, manufacturing, and public acceptance of a superior product. The marriage of Mercury Marine and Seadoo has been a freat one, the public tells us that the same feelings won't be there if Evinrude is involved. Remember that perception is more powerful than facts sometimes.

[thumper]

wow - i had no idea that evinrude were part of omc - evinrude are really being pushed as the new gen 2 strokes in the uk and people are buying them - i suppose at least bombardier have a good record.

[tda3]

I don't mean to be controversial but.......we as a dealer agree with many other sport boat dealers nationwide that Evinrude has a great product BUT the stigma of OMC's ownership and bankruptcy is still attached to both the Evinrude and Johnson lines of outboards. As one of the top 10 sport boat dealers nationwide we will NOT carry any Sea Doo jet boats that are equipped with anything other than a Mercury or Rotax engine. To many that means that the over 18 foot market will be penetrated by other manufaturers, we are looking at those options now.   We have been trying to find out what Seadoo's intentions are with respect to repowering the Utopia, Islandia, and Challenger X but have been unsuccessful so far. Since we make our living by buying from manufaturers and then reselling to the public we have to respond to what the public wants, and that precludes an Evinrude powered sport boat.

Interesting that one would say "we as a dealer agree with many other sport boat dealers nationwide that Evinrude has a great product", yet turn right around and emphatically state that you wouldn't carry a product with an Evinrude powerplant. I plead ignorance in your reference to OMC's ownership and bankruptcy, but I'm not sure what message that sends to a customer. "That steak has an awesome flavor, but I'd never eat one." Huh???

I think what we're focusing on here is not so much what name happens to be on the engine, but the technology that allows 2 strokes to compete (beat?) with the 4-strokes. I've been a gear head most of my life and have raced 2-strokes and 4-strokes. They both have their place but in the world of small light-weight boats that aren't reliant upon engine torque, a 2-stroke is the best solution in terms of power-to-weight ratio. Their simplicity compared to the moving parts that make up a 4-stroke is a huge advantage. Make that 2-stroke as fuel efficient and decrease its emissions to that of a 4-stroke and you've hit the holy grail IMHO. SIGN ME UP!

keviseeb - Care to enlighten me and possibly others about what bad karma the Evinrude name brings to the table?

Tom

[keviseeb]

Bombardier purchased Evinrude and Johnson from OMC after OMC filed bankruptcy. OMC used to be an inexpensive I/O manufacturer using mostly Ford products as their base engine. Resale value for OMC, Evinrude, and Johnson products from that era are substantially less than similarly equipped Mercury, Volvo, or other major brands. My statement about not carrying Evinrude equipped products is simple, the vast majority of customers we have talked to about the potential of an E-tec equipped sport boat were NOT in favor of it! Mercury has a great product that has been marketed very well. As I said, we are only able to react to customer perception, the E-tec may be superior to Mercury's Optimax technology but it doesn't matter if the customer and dealers won't buy the boat! I consider myself to be a gearhead as well but I will not put the future of this dealership or the jobs of our employees on the line because I like a product that most likely will not sell due to the customer's perception of the quality of that product. I do think the E-tec will EVENTUALLY erase the stigma attached to the brand name, it just hasn't happened yet. When it does we will be happy to market the only product we have seen to date that gives Mercury some serious competition.

[tda3]

Bombardier purchased Evinrude and Johnson from OMC after OMC filed bankruptcy. OMC used to be an inexpensive I/O manufacturer using mostly Ford products as their base engine. Resale value for OMC, Evinrude, and Johnson products from that era are substantially less than similarly equipped Mercury, Volvo, or other major brands. My statement about not carrying Evinrude equipped products is simple, the vast majority of customers we have talked to about the potential of an E-tec equipped sport boat were NOT in favor of it! Mercury has a great product that has been marketed very well. As I said, we are only able to react to customer perception, the E-tec may be superior to Mercury's Optimax technology but it doesn't matter if the customer and dealers won't buy the boat! I consider myself to be a gearhead as well but I will not put the future of this dealership or the jobs of our employees on the line because I like a product that most likely will not sell due to the customer's perception of the quality of that product. I do think the E-tec will EVENTUALLY erase the stigma attached to the brand name, it just hasn't happened yet. When it does we will be happy to market the only product we have seen to date that gives Mercury some serious competition.

I certainly don't mean to give the perception of beating this to death. However, I believe keviseeb that you & I are approaching this topic from two completely different perspectives.

At the risk of sounding harsh, I'm not concerned with the public's perception of Evinrude nor am I trying to debate what product you wish to market. I applaud your noble goal of keeping a business running and people employed. Seriously, I doo. And while I'm confident that you have a very good handle on what your customers want, let's be honest in the fact that we each have our own prejudices. I'm also confident that you'd agree with me that brand loyalty in boating is as great or greater than automobiles. Thus leading to even greater prejudices and possibly some MIS-perceptions (I was taught that just because a person's perception was their reality, it didn't necessarily make it the truth). Being a top notch dealer as you are, I'm willing to bet that Bombardier is looking to folks like you to show some leadership and be a change agent should they decide to introduce the "new & improved" Evinrude to their Sea-Doo line. Who knows....maybe not. But I digress.....

All I was attempting to do with this thread was to point out that the same company that gave to us (and to you) the Rotax 4-Tec is the same company that pioneered some break through 2-stroke technology called e-Tec. And that in the realm of small fast sportboats such as a Challenger 180, an e-Tec 2-stroke engine is a better solution than a 4-stroke.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Tom

ps: keviseeb - I sincerely appreciate your comments and perspectives.