19 replies to this topic

[johnny quattro]

Hi! Guys,
I am a newbie 230 challenger (510hp) doooer.
It is our families first summer in the challenger and have enjoyed it immensely!
Fast, smooth, roomy, but very thirsty!

I have develoed an early pet peeve to do with the boat attitude when in neutral.

When I start the engines (in neutral of course), there is a fair amount of jet propulsion from the idling jets.

This really creates necessary manouvers (changing from neutral to reverse repeatedly) to merely stay positioned relative to the dock side.

I know all of you jet boaters will say.... your just not used to jet boats, or you will master it in a short while, or find the sweet spot between neutral/reverse and hold it there, etc.

To put it bluntly. This just should not be neceessary with a new $50,000 boat!

Why can't the dealers (as part of the PDI) be made to adjust the reverse gate position to the best interference position to obtain true neutral or zero forward thrust.

If this gate was adjusted correctly to diffuse the correct amount of forward thrust when in neutral, wouldn't it be much easier and safer for the driver and his passengers?

Then sea doo owners would not be telling me, "you will get used to it!"

Comments anyone?

[Kevin Leclair]

This has been an issue on the jet boats for years, I will say that SeaDoo has addressed this on some of the models in 2011. They now come with something called "neutral lock", this still isn't a "true" neutral but it does control the boat more and prevent what you are describing.

[Pete Z]

My 150 Speedster moves forward fairly agressively when in neutral as well. I have found that this trait helps for docking, but it is difficult to hold it stationary at the dock while it is running. As such, I just shut it off dockside. I plan on adjusting the reverse gate a little further down when in neutral if possible, but with no true engine to drive disconnect I'm not ever expecting a perfect stationary boat when idling in neutral.

[johnny quattro]

This has been an issue on the jet boats for years, I will say that SeaDoo has addressed this on some of the models in 2011. They now come with something called "neutral lock", this still isn't a "true" neutral but it does control the boat more and prevent what you are describing.

Thanks for the comment and info Kevin!

I have since spoken to fellow marina seadooer, and he (as well as Pete Z) had the same problem.

He advised me that mechanically it is simple to rectify with some trial and error reverse gate "neutral" position adjustments, resulting in a "virtual neutral" outcome.

I will end up doing it at my cost, and that sucks!

I wish I had known this prior to delivery, as we could've been more insistant on the dealerships PDI responsibilities and checklist.

I also feel that it is a black mark against Sea Doo!

[johnny quattro]

My 150 Speedster moves forward fairly agressively when in neutral as well. I have found that this trait helps for docking, but it is difficult to hold it stationary at the dock while it is running. As such, I just shut it off dockside. I plan on adjusting the reverse gate a little further down when in neutral if possible, but with no true engine to drive disconnect I'm not ever expecting a perfect stationary boat when idling in neutral.

Thanks for the comment Pete Z!

Copy on the fairly aggressive forward motion in neutral! You should try it with 510 horses chomping at the bit! Ha! Ha!

I just read a Mercury/Mariner Service Bulletin # 97-8 for the Sport Jet 175XR2.

FYI, here is the link:
www.marinepartsman.com/Mercury-Marine-service-bulletins/.../EN_08.PDF

While it addresses the danger of shifter cable slack and maladjustment effects, it does clarify the best neutral adjustment procedure.

Also see my return reply to Kevin. A fellow marina dooer said it took him three adjustments to get it exactly right. He has a 210 wake, and I witnessed that it is almost perfectly still in neutral.

We have to use a dealer for any adjustment because we do not need any more warranty issues (about a dozen so far, nothing major, but nit picking stuff like power windows staying down, etc).

Let us know of your success if you tackle the adjustment yourself.

Thanks again.

[jusdoit]

JQ...When you say "very thirsty", what kind are hourly fuel consumption are you getting...or any other insight you can give me. What kind of speeds are you running to make it thirsty? What's your top speed? Thanks.

[johnny quattro]

JQ...When you say "very thirsty", what kind are hourly fuel consumption are you getting...or any other insight you can give me. What kind of speeds are you running to make it thirsty? What's your top speed? Thanks.

Hi! Jusdoit,
First of all boat speedo (@ 8,000RPM) top speed 58mph (GPS speed 59.7mph on 91 octane fuel.

Second, at top speed 1.5 mpg (US), or 38.7 gph, or 40 miles/100 Ltrs (at $1.30/Ltr, that's $189/hr!!!!).

Third, at cruising speed of 25mph, 2.9 mpg (US), 8.6 gph, or 77 miles/100 Ltrs (at $1.20/Ltr, that's $42/hr!!).

Not complaining, but to put it another way, an afternoon of 3 hours tubing/boarding costs about $240!!!!

[davo]

Not too bad really, only $3.50 per person per hour, if you fill her up! Unfortunately I don't have that many friends.

[Pete Z]

I have the use of a 24 Sea Ray Laguna powered by a pair of 200-horse Yamaha Saltwater Series OX66-injected 2-strokes. The boat has a fuel flow meter on it and at full whack it gives you the cheery news that you are consuming fuel at the alarming rate of 48 gph! I found that whenever you are dealing with lots of horses, feeding them is bound to be expensive. Your Challenger actually doesn't sound all that bad, especially taking into consideration how inefficient jet drives are.

[johnny quattro]

I have the use of a 24 Sea Ray Laguna powered by a pair of 200-horse Yamaha Saltwater Series OX66-injected 2-strokes. The boat has a fuel flow meter on it and at full whack it gives you the cheery news that you are consuming fuel at the alarming rate of 48 gph! I found that whenever you are dealing with lots of horses, feeding them is bound to be expensive. Your Challenger actually doesn't sound all that bad, especially taking into consideration how inefficient jet drives are.

Thanks for the comparison Pete Z. Wow, 48 GPH! @ $1.30/Ltr, that's $230/hr or $700 for an afternoon on the water!

Kind of reassuring, knowing that a smaller HP can actually consume more gas.

They say that the Challenger hull has been refined to optimize planing and drag reduction (21 degree deadrise).

It carries twin 1.5L 4 Tec Supercharged rotary engines which are fairly fuel efficient in comparison with other engines.

Maybe the Challenger's efficient hull design is why the fuel consumption is not worse?

[johnny quattro]

Not too bad really, only $3.50 per person per hour, if you fill her up! Unfortunately I don't have that many friends.

Hey, great idea Davo.

Maybe I should start charging each friend or family member $3.50/hr for boat rental! Ha! Ha!

[gmt]

Johnny,

I know your frustration with trying to keep a jet boat stable at idle, it is a nightmare and it is worse when you have 2 engines. I have had 4 different SeaDoo jet boats, all smaller models, but nevertheless, 2 with single engines and 2 with dual engines and none of them would stay perfectly still at idle. When it really is frustrating is trying to keep the boat straight and steady while giving a skier or a wakeboarder time to get ready at the end of the rope.

Think about this problem versus a prop boat. A prop boat in neutral has a transmission and the prop stops spinning so there is no thrust. But with a jet boat, in neutral, there continues to be thrust. Trying to engineer a reverse gate that is going to perfectly balance forward, rearward and side to side thrust is a very difficult thing to do. Plus you do not have an outdrive and prop in the water acting as sort of a keel.

Think about it if you had the same engineering problem with a prop, neutral did not really stop the prop from spinning so there was still forward thrust. You are an engineer and you have to design a bucket that is going to drop behind the prop and balance the trust in all directions. Difficult.

Jet boats have their advantages and their disadvantages, you have identified one of their disadvantages. I have both a prop boat and a jet boat in my possession and I like them both, but for different reasons.

But, enjoy your boat. It must be beautiful!

Gordon

[DDR]

JC,
I had my dealer fix the forward creep under warranty after I bought the boat. And, yes there is an adjustment you can make. The mechanic showed me the adjuster that will lower/raise the gate. Take out the pin and turn it a bit. Insert the pin and check it out. Readjust until there is no creep in either direction. I believe there is probably some measurement/method that can be done on the gate to get it close to begin with, but I haven't seen that yet.
By the way, my dealer didn't get it perfect either.
I would like to learn more about the neutral lock on the newer boats. I figured it would just clamp/lock the steering wheel in the straight ahead position so the boat didn't just spin in circles. That is always fun when hanging or removing fenders. Does it work some other way?

Dave
6/11/2012 I finally got to work on the adjustment and take some pics.
I'll post them as soon as I can eat dinner and figure out how to post pics.
I rotated mine 2 turns to the right/clockwise. I'll have to see how that works when I get it in the water. That may be a week or two.
Here are some pics -- I hope.
First one is of the whole assembly

 DSC_4537 (Large).JPG   64.94KB   163 downloads

Then the nut that has to come off in order to move the cable to get room to make the adjustment.

 DSC_4544 (Large).JPG   54.32KB   189 downloads

Next is two shots of the adjuster that is under a black cap that is held down by the cotter pin. (notice how my previous dealer used a non stainless pin.) Remove the pin and pick up the cap.

 DSC_4557 (Large).JPG   57.19KB   195 downloads  DSC_4555 (Large).JPG   57.47KB   187 downloads

Next is the adjuster while lifting the cable. This is when the adjuster gets turned on the cable.

 DSC_4545 (Large).JPG   53.17KB   144 downloads

I turned mine clockwise thinking it would move it in and thereby push the rod out which would move the diverters lower. Hopefully, that would lessen the forward push.
I'll let you know how it worked out.
Later...
Dave

Well, the 2 full turns of the adjustment worked perfectly. I start both engines and sit exactly where I am with the engines running. I was amazed I hit it perfectly.
It works as I stated.
Good luck/adjustments to all.
Post your results or questions.
Dave

[johnny quattro]

JC,
I had my dealer fix the forward creep under warranty after I bought the boat. And, yes there is an adjustment you can make. The mechanic showed me the adjuster that will lower/raise the gate. Take out the pin and turn it a bit. Insert the pin and check it out. Readjust until there is no creep in either direction. I believe there is probably some measurement/method that can be done on the gate to get it close to begin with, but I haven't seen that yet.
By the way, my dealer didn't get it perfect either.
I would like to learn more about the neutral lock on the newer boats. I figured it would just clamp/lock the steering wheel in the straight ahead position so the boat didn't just spin in circles. That is always fun when hanging or removing fenders. Does it work some other way?

Dave

Thanks for your input Dave!
I knew the dealer should have the responsibility.
Any chance of a pic or schematic of the adjuster and pin?
Thanks in advance.
Johnny

[JeremyS]

The lack of a true neutral will probably be the reason we trade in our doo within 2-4 years. We were told our boat had GPS assisted neutral but now they just tell us to we need to get used to it. I'm glad to hear there is hope with a few minor adjustments.

I'm not sure how Neutral Lock is supposed to work, but this doesn't.

[johnny quattro]

I think it is a sad state of affairs with BRP. We paid over $50,000 in cash for our 2010 Doo, to be told by all, "Get used to the Neutral that is not Neutral".

[DDR]

GPS assisted! You ought to threaten to sue them for false advertising and maybe they will give you an extended warranty.

Hope the pics helped.
Dave

[jkanesmith]

I've never had a jet boat before I bought my Wake and although it took some getting used to, I actually like the fact that it has some thrust while in neutral, otherwise you would have no control. If I need an actual neutral I just turn the boat off if I'm not going to be at the wheel, otherwise I just hold it in neutral. Without it if you put it in neutral while you're moving you would just drift and have no control whatsoever, and then everyone would be complaining about that too, it's a lose lose situation for BRP, you can't please everyone.

[DDR]

See #13 for neutral adjustment procedure.

http://seadoosportbo...eve/#entry22266

[spinyard]

to put boat into neutral simply turn off both motors bingo you are in neutral